OREANDA-NEWS. August 9, 2010. Transcript of the beginning of the meeting:

Vladimir Putin: Good afternoon, colleagues. As you know, we are now engaged in a very dynamic discussion of issues related to drafting the budget for 2011 and subsequent years. And, of course, the lion's share of our attention is devoted to social issues and economic development. Unfortunately, as often happens, cultural issues have to make do with whatever's left, in terms of attention and resources. Yet everyone knows and often repeats that it is these issues that form the basis of our existence. I have already mentioned this at a meeting with the archaeologists in Novgorod but I want to reiterate what may be a hackneyed truism, but what is nevertheless, important. It does not become less important because of how often we repeat it: without knowing one's past one cannot build a future.

I would like to discuss the results of my meeting with representatives of archaeological science both in Novgorod and in the field. You know, the videoconference included discussions with some colleagues who work in the field in different regions of the Russian Federation. They raised a number of issues which, in my opinion, really need our further attention. What am I referring to? First of all, the fact that there is no explicit supervision of archaeological science by federal government agencies. It is as if it falls at the crossroads between different agencies. This is the first point.

Second. We also drew attention to the lack of legal regulation over a number of issues related to this work. We recalled the fact that Russia signed the 1992 European Convention for the Protection of the Archaeological Heritage, but has still not ratified it. There are other issues related to training and education. People have raised concerns in relation to the promotion of what's known as the Bologna Process. We had developed quite a refined training system in this area. Now, as I learnt during that discussion, we risk damaging this well-balanced system with unclear prospects of what this will yield. I am referring to BA and MA degrees. When does professional specialisation come into this? They argue that it has entirely disappeared from higher education. And they believe that this is a mistake.

I also draw our attention to the logistical support for archaeological activities, the need to build additional storage facilities at existing museums, keeping in mind that artefacts discovered on digs need to be stored somewhere, and if they are not studied in time, they may simply disappear, vanish and the results of many years of work could be destroyed.

A number of more fundamental issues were raised, and that surprised and pleased me. For example, the issue of tax changes, in particular abolishing VAT on non-profit archaeological work. The question of making changes to the pension system for leading experts was also raised. And this, in turn, affects another problem, that of recruiting new staff. So if the leading scientists could increase the retirement replacement ratio, then those people could be safely transferred to a different status, they would not be lost to science, and full-time jobs would be freed for young professionals. Incidentally, I promised that we would create an additional four full-time positions in the appropriate institute of the Academy of Sciences, the Institute of Archaeology, so that they can hire new young professionals.

These are not all the issues raised during the conversation, but this is the approximate range of issues that, in some form, we discussed. This is what I would like to discuss with you today.

I have prepared a draft government directive, but would like this draft to be a working draft, forming the basis of our joint efforts in making the appropriate adjustments to how the sector functions.

Mr Avdeyev (addressing Culture Minister Alexander Avdeyev) please, go ahead

Alexander Avdeyev: Mr Putin, first, this issue has been raised in a timely manner and it is one that has existed for a long time. Archaeology in Russia has fallen outside the scope of public administration. Bringing back centralised regulatory supervision over archaeology is a pressing issue. I think that most logically, the Ministry of Culture should address this. We are ready and willing to assume these functions. This is the first point. The second is that we have no problem with Mr Osipov (President of the Russian Academy of Sciences) clearly differentiating between those research functions that will remain with the Academy, and ours, which involve preserving the national archaeological collection as well as delineating archaeological zones and their protection. Managing archaeology as a whole, not in terms of scientific research, but its cultural dimension.

To date, archaeological site museums have been overseeing archaeology in the Ministry of Culture. You visited one. That example demonstrates that the fragmentary supervision of archaeology focusing solely on archaeological site museums is ineffective, it only adds to the inefficiencies in the museums' operations, and also leads to the underfunding of archaeology itself. Therefore, we are ready to develop this power structure under my Ministry and to assume these functions.

Vladimir Putin: Mr Zhukov (addressing Deputy Prime Minister Alexander Zhukov).

Alexander Zhukov: Mr Putin, you raised a whole series of issues, including those related to the logistical support for museum repositories. This is a very pertinent issue: museums lack space in their repositories and to display their exhibits and artefacts.

Of course, issues related to archaeology, excavation, conservation, are very urgent. We will prepare such proposals. It seems these issues will require additional funding.

Vladimir Putin: There's not much money.

Alexander Zhukov: Yes, but nevertheless. We're working on the taxation issue. I think we will be able to resolve this, because archaeological excavation is indeed a non-profit activity. We are also working on social issues related to pensions and, in principle, material assistance for those people who are involved in this. Naturally, we are also looking at the number of people, and we'll report back to you on this. I think that we will be able to find solutions to all these issues.

Vladimir Putin: Pensions for leading experts. This does not only apply to archaeology, but also to science in general and other institutions.

Alexander Zhukov: Mr Putin, pensions are currently directly linked to people's earnings during their working lives. This is directly connected to the material support for scientists and those involved in excavations. I think that in this case, we can look for ways to increase it.

Vladimir Putin: There has been a very sharp decline. We need to understand why this decline is occurring. It does not seem to be connected with the basic wage, but with additional benefits. And the total earnings, plus additional benefits upon retirement, the wage replacement ratio is very low. We must think about raising this replacement ratio. We are not talking about large numbers of people, but in fact, about leading specialists and scientists.

Alexander Zhukov: Good.

Vladimir Putin: (addressing Education and Science Minister Andrei Fursenko): Your report regarding education, please.

Andrei Fursenko: First of all, in terms of the transition to a new education system, the Bologna Process, the specifics have been taken into account. I think that we this is something that will need to be done as we develop the MA system for particular specialisations. From the very beginning, specialisations were determined with the involvement of academic and scientific representatives, but it seems archaeologists were not included in this process at the appropriate time. This is a live process. It is being updated all the time, so the directive will be fulfilled.

We'll review this at a meeting with people representing the disciplines of history and archaeological science. And we'll return to this issue in order to introduce the appropriate specialisation. I think that the meeting about the master's degree, first of all, must be about the fact that there should be a single general education but that there should then be further education for additional qualifications specifically in archaeology.

Vladimir Putin: People are concerned that it does not exist as a profession, that archaeology in general has declined.

Andrei Fursenko: This is regarding, in my opinion, archaeology and history ... We can resolve this issue.

Vladimir Putin: See to it.

Alexander Avdeyev: Mr Putin, may I add something? We have retained the 18 specialisations that do not fall under the Bologna process. We had a big debate, an internal struggle. Eighteen specialist subjects in the arts. In these, we are educating people according to the Soviet system. It turned out to be the best in the world. We need to also look at archaeologists. I do not rule out that we need to leave our sturdy old education system to the archaeologists and not include them in the Bologna Process.

Andrei Fursenko: Let's not get into a discussion now. Archaeology is a highly specialised discipline, so someone who has studied archaeology and then cannot find a job is in a difficult situation. It is very important that he has a basic professional qualification, and then when he knows for sure that he already has a job and has opportunities for professional development, he can specialise further. That is exactly what we took into account when we created a two-tier structure.

If we can, let's consider two other issues very briefly. Regarding young professionals, there is the general issue that we discussed with Mr Osipov, one that we have repeatedly raised, of the need to create some kind of system under which the Academy of Sciences would be allocated some small funds, in a targeted manner, I stress. With your permission, this is something we could discuss during the budget process, the direction of a certain sum taken from existing allocated resources in a particular way for this precise purpose. I am referring specifically to archaeology. It would go precisely to those young professionals, and not get sidetracked to under any other issues.

Second. Some expeditions are financed from the Humanitarian Research Fund. The excavations that you have seen were, as well. It's not a great deal of money, but they began to decrease in number, because in recent years funding from this particular fund began to decline. I would like to suggest that perhaps through some kind of redistribution, we should nonetheless consider the possibility of at least maintaining the level of funding from this Fund, for example, at 2008 levels. This is really a very good progressive funding measure, while at the same time we would place representatives from the Ministry of Culture on the Fund's board so that they can exert the appropriate supervision over the sector. We saw that in 2010, 33 million roubles were allocated for this purpose. This amount could probably be increased, even though the Fund itself is small.

Vladimir Putin: Mr Osipov (addressing Yuri Osipov).

Yuri Osipov: We are very pleased that this decision is being made because in a sense, archaeological work has been neglected. There are very many problems here. I took a look at the draft resolution that has been prepared. Everything here is relevant, and we will carry it all out.

I would like to draw attention to something. Our country is in great trouble - the number of looters is growing rapidly. Completely unique finds have been ruined. I'm not talking about the burial mounds. Nearly all the burial mounds have been dug up.

And what is looted disappears without trace. Then it appears somewhere abroad, being sold at auction. This is totally unacceptable. Mr Avdeyev and I have discussed this subject. We agreed to establish a small board comprising the Academy of Sciences, the Ministry of Culture and Ministry of Education, and we are likely to take the issuing of licenses for such activities under strict control. This is extremely important.

Now the crucial issue that you raise, that of the repository for cultural artefacts that archaeologists find. This is a very sensitive issue. About twenty years ago, we excavated in the vicinity of the Urals and found a one-of-a-kind collection of gold in a burial mound. It was held in Bashkortostan, which is not far away, and the local government has given us a building, but it was not properly guarded. It's a headache. There are priceless treasures there, and they are not only of cultural value but are also worth a great deal.

Therefore, such storage facilities are essential. Well, here we have the museum, and in fact thousands of items, which are a result of archaeological excavations - they are merely kept in rooms, in little halls. In some places, we try to set up museums. This is absolutely wrong. Therefore, we need a directive on establishing such repositories - this is essential. And anyway, I think that no country in the world is as seriously involved in archaeology as we are in Russia.

Because we do not only dig in Russia, but also in Yemen, Egypt, Syria and in former Soviet republics: Ukraine - in the Crimea, in Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan. This is a whole vast culture, which is being created in Russia and is developing. This should be supported. The outlay is very great.

Vladimir Putin: Mr Osipov touched upon one of the issues, the issue of unauthorised archaeological work and the resale of art and antiquities on the black market. But this is only one of the issues of strengthening the legal framework for archaeological activity. I am also referring to access to works of art which are on private property, purchased by private individuals and so on. This is also one of the issues raised during our discussion in Novgorod.

I asked Boris Gryzlov to discuss this matter with the members of the State Duma, with experts, representatives of the scientific community and with the public. And that the deputies make proposals on strengthening this legislative framework. I would ask you also to join in this collaborative effort.

Yuri Osipov: By all means.

Vladimir Putin: Thank you.